shooting

[Wealdmaster]

I think that when one is using such grand toys for wargames, one must really shoot!! Just like HG wells.  These playmobile cannons are just crying out for improvment I think.  I'm waiting for a customization for a firing mechanism that can knock the heck out of a figure at say 10 feet or even more,  " capapble of hitting a toy soldier 9 times out of 10 at a distance of 9 yards"  (HG wells) Now that is artillery !!!!

[Capitan Enrique]

I agree 100%! The fun is in actually knocking things down! That is my (and my children's ) favorite part!

As far as the guns, I think you can experiment with different sizes and stiffness of springs to get a harder shot. Let us know what you find out.

[Richard]

I think that when one is using such grand toys for wargames, one must really shoot!!

I agree 100%! The fun is in actually knocking things down! That is my (and my children's ) favorite part!

And, I agree with both of you!

I would much rather depend on my skill as a cannon shooter than ever have to depend on my luck as a dice roller ...



All the best,
Richard

[Wealdmaster]

I find the comments made here good.  In the wake of my just joining this site, and my enthusiasm as a rooky to playmobil gaming, I would like to make some comments in general about shooting and its implication.  Wargames have been evolving ever since HG wells. but I'm not sure they have always evolved in a forward direction.  I think that the point of wargames is to play a fun game with three main sub points 1. play with beautiful, exitic, artisan style toys, 2. have some gentlemanly social interaction that isn't usually had elsewhere, 3. Have a kind of sporting competition or roleplaying element where the players take on the role of some fictitoius type, general, commander, individual adventurer, etc.   HG wells had all of these in his game, and a game it was, fast moving, decisive, highly variable, and for gentleman.  Beatiful toys.  After that wargames started to try to get at more of an accurate simulation.  That isn't all bad, but it tended to turn out bad for the gamers.  There is really no way to make complicated enough rules for this, and it tended to attract obsessive non gentleman types "rules lawyers" as we know them.  The toy qualilty declined as smaller and more realistic soldiers were needed cheaply produced en masse.  Games lost any real variability and came down to excersises in statistics, litigation, research, and probability.  "DICE'' here can be an ugly word.  Things kept going with the advent of roleplaying in the 70's, things are so abstract and non gamish now that it is really sick.    SOme games seem to be undertanding this in a kind of sleepy cloudy way and trying to solve, it but they are just using the same old construct.  Nothing new.

Then there is playmobil.  The most high quality toy in the universe, forced out of my mind and left in the subconsious of my imagination's history by insular, dim witted, narrow minded fools like my 4th grade teacher who encouraged grown up activity like sports.    

I really think that the wargaming and collecting community and gaming community can combine here to make a new kind of wargaming revolution.  This playmobil gaming is incredible in it's possibility.  It has the three elements of a good wargame.  I feel, it can take off and you might see poeple everywhere of diverse backgrounds whispering in a business meeting about that perfect cannon shot in the parlour last Sunday afternoon which knocked over 15 klickies at once.  
I say again, this is what people are looking for in wargames.  
One of the most important elements is shooting guns.  It destroys the ability of rules lawyers to finagle and cheat their way in to this and ruin it for everyone.  The gun fires, and hits or misses, it's about skill a little luck, no charts or dice are needed.  I love it.  The quick action of moving in accordance with timed moves that renders movment chits, cards, dice, irrelevant.  It's all handled with grace and excitment.  As HG wells said, things should happen and not be decided.

Anyway, i'm glad to be here.

[Richard]

One of the most important elements is shooting guns. It destroys the ability of rules lawyers to finagle and cheat their way in to this and ruin it for everyone. The gun fires, and hits or misses, it's about skill a little luck, no charts or dice are needed. I love it. The quick action of moving in accordance with timed moves that renders movment chits, cards, dice, irrelevant. It's all handled with grace and excitment. As HG wells said, things should happen and not be decided.

Well said, Jude!

Anyway, i'm glad to be here.

And, we're happy that you're here!



All the best,
Richard

[Capitan Enrique]

You bring up some very interesting points Jude.

My own feelings about wargaming have changed over the years. At times, I enjoyed very realistic, complex simulations. We'd play on huge boards with hundreds of counters. For a time, I was quite involved in role-playing - mostly because space limitations made conventional wargaming impractical, and I only had room for a couple of books and a small place to roll the dice. Right now, I mostly enjoy simple games where the result is determined by an actual canon shot - because I enjoy playing with my kids, and that is what they want to play. As they are getting older we are changing how we play yet again. Our games are evolving.

But I do think there's room for different types of gaming, simply because there are different types of gamers. On this board I think most of us play in different ways, but we all use Playmobil figures in some way - and that is what brings us together.

[Ian]

My feelings on this subject are that there are two types of games: I call them simulation, and contest.

Contest games include Soccer, Chess, and Little Wars.  The purpose of the game is to decide which player is the best athlete, strategist, and/or cannon shooter.  These games do not have to represent anything in real life as long as they are a fair contest.

Simulation games are oriented towards telling a story.  The players that participate do so because they want to see how the game turns out.  They do not care very much whether they win or not, but they want the game to turn out as it might have in real life, and they want to watch it happen.  The rules and victory conditions in simulation games are hardly ever exactly fair to all the players, they simply make the game realistic and encourage the commanders to behave as they would in real life.  Most modern wargames fall into this category.

I think that as a general rule, good contest games involve little chance (dice rolling) so as to be fair, and not give one player an advantage if he gets a string of good luck.  Simulation games can have more dice, because that's how real life is.  The dice make the game interesting and often turn out an unexpected finish.  That's what's fun about a simulation.

Now as to Little Wars,
Shooting little chunks of plastic at other chunks of plastic with a little toy cannon is not a realistic way to represent real gunpowder cannon and explosive shells, but it is a good contest because there is lots of skill involved.  The strategy of Little Wars also bears little resemblance to real tactics, but good strategy in little wars is more than half the game.

This post doesn't really say anything different than The Captain said - different games for different gamers.  Contest and simulation games are completely different in their purpose and structure, both are fun, but in different ways, and I enjoy a good game that stays in one category and doesn't try to combine a contest with a simulation.

The conclusion:  Actually shooting at the soldiers, like Wells, is a excellent way to play a fun contest wargame.

[Ian]

Ah, yes: knocking things down is fun,

But what to shoot with?


I have been trying to play little wars with a "big bertha" "grand cannon" short, stubby "mortar" type gun, but I find that it doesn't shoot far enough (although you can streatch out the spring, which helps) and it is different than a field gun like what Wells used because you shoot the ball with high trajectory and hit soldiers that you can't even see.  The other gun people seem to be using is the one from set 3729, US Artillerie.  I don't think it's sold anymore in the states, but I was wondering if anyone else had one of these and if they shoot good, or are just as wimpy as the pirate cannons.

If the Artillerie gun is fairly strong and acurate, perhaps both types could be used in a Little Wars battle.  The one able to lob large projectiles high over obstacles to scatter massed formations with a huge ball, the other strong and acurate, able to hit a formation on the other side of the map.

It seems I am stuck with the mortars though.  They're not so bad  

I just need more men, that's my problem.  As soon as one of my "formations" of 5 men get in range of a big bertha, they get slaughtered with three shots, whether they are behind cover or not.  When you see the battles with tons of identical soldiers, like here in the battle of Hook's Farm

are they just bought en masse or are they all from boxed sets?  How do you get such big identical armies?

Thanks for your answers!

[de Warrens]

 When you see the battles with tons of identical soldiers, like here in the battle of Hook's Farm
are they just bought en masse or are they all from boxed sets?  How do you get such big identical armies?

Thanks for your answers!

I haven`t much to say about the cannons but...

The Redcoats are available from the Direct Sservice in packs of three. I think the `black army` were customised chimneysweep specials.

All the best,
David

[Richard]

click on image for direct service page

Hello, Ian ...

Please click on the image above and you will see what David is suggesting.

Since you are in Minnesota, we have linked you to the US Direct Service site.

Hope this helps.

All the best,
Richard

[Richard]

please click on image above

Hello again, Ian ...

The cannon above was fairly accurate, but seldom knocked a Playmobil figure over. However the old metal Britains artillery pieces also were hard pressed to knock over a lead toy soldier. About the only artillery piece that WBritains ever made that was really accurate was their  4.7 Naval Gun and it couldn't knock over a metal toy soldier very easily either ...

So, our Playmobil artillery pieces are very similar (in ability) to what HG Wells used in his "Little Wars" garden wargames ...

All the best,
Richard

[livio]

Hello Ian,

I agree on the "Big Berta".
I strongly recommend the "US Artillery" gun. We use it in our games and it works really great. It shoots precisely over more than three meters (about 10 feet). Of course it hardly knocks anything over then. It it did, you couldn't move your figures out of cover at all, as a falling figure usually takes several comrades down with him. Long range fire is still very effective. You can even shoot "ballistically" - there is one guy who hits 3 out of 4 shots although he shoots over houses, trees, etc. Maybe I shouldn't invite him to the games anymore
At a shorter distance the gun is very well capable of knocking over several figures (except cavalry) and quite frequently does so, making gun captures with infantry very costly.
The only problem with the "US Artillery" is the amunition. The little bullets get lost very easy and frequently get sucked up by the vacuum cleaner.

I also tried the old metal 4'7 gun. It is as precise as the "US Artillery", but got slightly more punch. But it's much more expensive (on eBay).

You're absolutely right about your men being slaughtered by the guns. So games with several guns need a lot of cover (or a lot of men). You should always try to knock the enemy's guns out temporarily by reducing the crew below four. Normally the game is decided once you get hold of your opponents gun(s). "Little Wars" is mainly a shooting game. As Wells describes in his book, it all started with a gun.

Greetings,
Livio


PS: Yes, the blackcoats are converted chimneysweeps

Ah, yes: knocking things down is fun,

But what to shoot with?


I have been trying to play little wars with a "big bertha" "grand cannon" short, stubby "mortar" type gun, but I find that it doesn't shoot far enough (although you can streatch out the spring, which helps) and it is different than a field gun like what Wells used because you shoot the ball with high trajectory and hit soldiers that you can't even see.  The other gun people seem to be using is the one from set 3729, US Artillerie.  I don't think it's sold anymore in the states, but I was wondering if anyone else had one of these and if they shoot good, or are just as wimpy as the pirate cannons.

If the Artillerie gun is fairly strong and acurate, perhaps both types could be used in a Little Wars battle.  The one able to lob large projectiles high over obstacles to scatter massed formations with a huge ball, the other strong and acurate, able to hit a formation on the other side of the map.

It seems I am stuck with the mortars though.  They're not so bad  

I just need more men, that's my problem.  As soon as one of my "formations" of 5 men get in range of a big bertha, they get slaughtered with three shots, whether they are behind cover or not.  When you see the battles with tons of identical soldiers, like here in the battle of Hook's Farm

are they just bought en masse or are they all from boxed sets?  How do you get such big identical armies?

Thanks for your answers!

[Wealdmaster]

I know this problem well, it seems that the 4.7's and the us artillerie are hard pressed to work as well as wells boasts.  I am working on a solution, I know some guys here at the Ertl company who are engineers for prototypes, they say that the best way to make this idea work is to add a new barrel to the playmo gun.  This barrel shoudl be similar in that it has a rifled shell, like the playmo one, some playmo cannons have round balls or smooth bore shells.  The yellow shell with creases in the sides is the best and most accurate they say, I have a guy now working on a barrel like this but with a much stronger spring and composite shells that are heavier and can easily be made by the hundreds.  He thinks this will create more knockdown power at longer range.

[Richard]

... I have a guy now working on a barrel like this but with a much stronger spring and composite shells that are heavier and can easily be made by the hundreds.

Very interesting, Jude ...

Do you think that there is any possibility that Ertl might be interested in producing a limited quantity for large scale wargamers?

All the best,
Richard

[Wealdmaster]

I doubt ertl would produce it but this friend who is a master model maker/engineer can make it in limited quantities for me and then make the shells.  It might be a 1 centimeter or 1.2 cm diameter barrel with bigger spring, and the shells would fit tight and be heavier and have much more power, this would still fit into the standard carriage.  If it works, we could also make an even bigger barrel with bigger spring to represent a heavy gun.  

Jude